Charles Cave (White Lies): “Umjetnost je prijateljski parazit, treba se hraniti ljudima”
White Lies u nedjelju 10. ožujka po treći će put stati u zagrebačku Tvornicu kulture. Iza White Lies je već sada impozantnih pet albuma, a upravo ovog zadnjeg dolaze promovirati u Zagreb. S bubnjarom Jackom Lawrenceom-Brownom već sam imao priliku popričati povodom njihovog posljednjeg dolaska u Zagreb, a ovoga sam puta imao čast zagnjaviti basistu Charlesa Cavea pitanjima o posljednjem albumu, roditeljima i umjetnosti.
Pet albuma je puno! Osjećaš li se kao da ste svojom glazbom rekli sve što ste željeli reći kada ste počeli svirati?
Ono što želiš reći mijenja se cijelo vrijeme. Mislim da je ‘To Lose My Life’ rekao sve što sam želio reći kao osamnaestogodišnjak ili devetnaestogodišnjak. Stihovi sa zadnjeg albuma dolaze od osobe koja se nalazi na potpuno drugačijem mjestu nego se nalazila ona osoba prije deset godina. Iskusio sam puno više toga i osjećam se kao da s iskustvom dolaze pouzdanost i elegancija koje omogućuju da nešto kažeš suptilnije i profinjenije. Siguran sam da imam još toga za reći.
Koja je fascinacija s gradovima u vašim pjesmama. Prvo London pa L.A. i na kraju Tokio. Postoji li priča iz tih pjesama.
Oduvijek mi je bilo interesantno gdje ljudi žive. Ta nekakva psihogeografija. Odrastao sam u zapadnom dijelu Londona i sjećam se da sam od malena osjećao kako se grad mijenja kako se krećeš unutar njega. Išao sam u školu u centru grada, zatim sam kratko živio na jugu prije nego sam se preselio na sjever. Ideja kompasa je puno više od pukog pokazivanja smjera. Mislim da ja, kao i neki ljudi iz pjesama White Liesa, maštaju o ideji seljenja u drugi grad ili državu. Ne kako bi pronašli nešto bolje, već samo kako bi vidjeli mogu li to učiniti; mogu li postati pravi stanovnik grada. Uvijek ću biti fasciniran time kako ljudi rade sebi dom.
Možeš li mi objasniti pozadinu i koncept novog albuma? Koja je njegova ideja? Koji je smisao Brailleove abecede?
Album nema koncept. Ovo je nakupina pjesama koju je sastavila grupa dječaka koji žive u čudnim vremenima. Ipak, u ovim je pjesama dosta drugačijih likova – neki su bazirani na ljudima koje sam upoznao ili mojim prijateljima dok su neki u potpunosti izmišljeni. I taj čin njihova utjelovljenja i pisanja pjesama iz njihove perspektive uključuje vrstu translacije. Privukao me minimalizam kobigrapha i kako taj jezik izgleda i jasno, izgleda na papiru. Reći puno s malo. Kao pisac ne želiš da tvoj slušatelj ili čitatelj čuje samo što tvoj lik govori, nego želiš da čitatelj osjeti kako je to biti on.
Hoćemo li imati priliku čuti pjesme poput Taxidermy ili You Still Love Him u Zagrebu? Izvodite li ih još uopće?
Ne, te pjesme nismo svirali godinama. U zadnje vrijeme teško nam je napraviti set listu jer imamo 60 pjesama između kojih možemo birati. Srećom, set na ovoj turneji dobiva puno entuzijazma i pohvala publike iz UK-a i Europe. Puno nam je ljudi reklo kako smo odabrali odlične pjesme za ovu turneju. Jedva čekamo doći u Zagreb. Obje pjesme koje si spomenuo dolaze iz “To Lose My Life” ere i radimo planove da krajem godine proslavimo desetu godišnjicu tog albuma. Možda ćemo bar jednu od te dvije odsvirati nekada prije Božića.
Kako vaši roditelji i vaša obitelj doživljava vašu glazbu. Jesu li fanovi? Dolaze li na nastupe kada nastupate kod kuće?
Mislim da su naše obitelji veoma ponosne na ono što radimo i na ono što smo postigli. Često su i najveći kritičari. Osobno govoreći, kada se mom ocu svidi naša pjesma, vidim to kao veliki vjetar u leđa. Jer kroz njegovu ljubav prema glazbi je moja procvjetala tako da se još uvijek osjećam jako povezanim s njegovim mišljenjem.
Mora da volite i pratite neke serije. Što gledaš, koja ti je najdraža serija i za koju bi seriju volio raditi glazbu?
Zapravo ne gledam TV previše. S vremena na vrijeme gledam neke od onih kriminalističkih serija. “The Jinx” je bila najbolja, a ostale joj se nikada nisu ni približile. Sjećam se i da mi se svidjela prva sezona serije “Top Of The Lake” (iako je druga bila smeće) i sjećam se kako sam govorio da bih volio raditi glazbu za tu seriju. Glazba White Liesa bila bi odlična za bilo koju dramu ili, naravno, za bilo koju reklamu brenda koji ima veliki budžet.
Što je s filmovima? Spot za There Goes Our Love Again izgleda kao da je inspiriran Bollywood filmom “Gumnnam”. Koje filmove voliš? Koji su ti najdraži?
I dalje volim filmove i kino. Najdraži filmovi su mi “The Darjeeling Limited”, “A Nos Amours” i “Apocalypse Now”. Sviđaju mi se drugačiji filmovi. S jedne strane obožavam art-house kinematografiju koja svojim konceptom mijenja život, s druge strane rado bi “Interstellar” gledao na velikom ekranu bilo koji dan u tjednu.
Koja je poruka posljednjeg albuma ili kako ste uključili poruku koju ste željeli prenijeti u glazbu?
Mislim da umjetnost nije toliko do poruke koliko je do pitanja. Radimo umjetnost kako bismo pokrenuli razgovor o činjenici da mi kao umjetnici postojimo iako nismo imali nikakvog izbora u tome. I taj razgovor je usmjeren slušatelju, gledatelju ili čitatelju koji također postoji na istom mjestu kao i mi i koji također nije imao izbora u vezi toga. I pitanje je uvijek ‘Kako se nosiš sa svim tim?’ Zbog ovoga, umjetnost uvijek leži u nekom drugom koji umjetnost mora doživjeti i reagirati i na taj se način povezati s razgovorom. Pjesma poput Time To Give s ovog albuma postavlja pitanje: ‘Da li itko misli da su odnosi komplicirana stvar?’
Vaša diskografija počinje s post-punk vibrom koja se nastavlja na drugi album. Album “Friends” je zatim mješavina tog ganutljivog zvuka s početka vaše karijere i ‘veselijeg’ zvuka White Liesa. Zbog toga prvi i zadnji album nemaju veze jedan s drugim. Misliš li da Vam je ta promjena tijekom godina uvijek donosila nove fanove i jesu li fanovi s početka vaše karijere ostali fanovi do sada?
Da, svaki dan dobivamo nove fanove, ali sigurno smo ih i izgubili. Dokle god ljudi koji rade glazbu rastu, vjerojatno je da će i glazba koju rade rasti. Puno se ljudi povezalo s hipo-teenage-goth vrstom pjesama s “To Lose My Life”, a i mi ih još volimo. Kad ih sviramo ili slušamo, razumijemo da su one dio naše prošlosti, ne sadašnjosti. Nikad se nismo trudili maknuti od ili prerasti određeni zvuk, nego smo stvari pustili da se događaju prirodno. Trenutno smo na našoj najvećoj turneji ikad i na kraju ćemo prodati više karata nego ikada prije. Tako da smo sretni kada možemo reći, unatoč ljestvicama, medijima i radijima da smo veći bend nego ikada prije. Imamo više strasti nego ikada prije i uživamo u ovome svemu više nego ikada prije. Nevjerojatno je, nakon deset godina, čuti publiku kako glasnije pjeva Tokyo sa zadnjeg albuma nego Death s prvog.
Misliš li da White Liesi prate trendove u modernoj glazbi?
Ne. Hvala bogu.
Oduvijek postoji ta ideja da glazba mora imati veću ideju, veći smisao. Je li to istina za današnju glazbu? Koji je bio razlog zašto si se ti odlučio baviti glazbom? Je li sve to zabava, posao ili nešto drugo?
To se veže s onime što sam prije govorio; umjetnost je način otvaranja dijaloga ili razgovora s drugim ljudima o našoj nasumičnoj egzistenciji. To je alat za borbu protiv (na primjer) osjećaja samoće među grupom prijatelja. Naravno, postoje razni oblici izražavanja i o umjetnosti se nikada ne bi trebalo suditi ovisno o broju ljudi koje je dotakla, nego uvijek po intenzitetu kojim je dotaknula pojedinca. Pjesma će uvijek biti jednako uspješna kao i neuspješna, isto kao i slika ili film. U tome i je ljepota. Umjetnost je prijateljski parazit, treba se hraniti ljudima. Ako pjesmu čuje samo jedna osoba i pjesma tu osobu zbilja dotakne, ona je jednako uspješna kao i pjesma koja na isti način dotakne tisuću ljudi, ali i znatno veći uspjeh od pjesme koja ne dotakne tisuću ljudi u tolikoj mjeri. Dobra umjetnost igra na emocije, tako da ju mora raditi netko izrazito emotivno inteligentan. Mislim da dobar dio današnje popularne glazbe rade ljudi koji su malo zakinuti u tom segmentu. Ostavljam stihove iz jedne moderne pjesme za kraj:
I’m tired of being home alone (Home alone)
I used to have a girl a day (Girl a day)
Yeah, I want you to stay (I want you to stay, hey)
You said you might be into girls (Into girls)
You said you’re going through a phase (Through a phase)
Keepin’ your heart safe (Keepin’ your heart safe, oh)
Well, baby, you can bring a friend (Bring a friend)
She can ride on top your face (Top your face)
While I fuck you straight (While I fuck you straight, yeah)
Kakav je osjećaj biti s druge strane pozornice? Zasigurno je ideja touranja svijetom, nastupanja pred rasprodanim dvoranama i ideja da ljudi s tobom sviraju tvoje pjesme nevjerojatna, ali ima i više od toga?
Kao i bilo kakvo iskustvo, cijelo vrijeme varira, mijenja se. Svaki nastup, drugačiji je nastup zato što svaki nastup ima drugačiju publiku u drugačijem gradu, ali i drugačiji prostor u kojem se nastupa. Većinu vremena volim izvoditi naše pjesme uživo, isto kao i Harry i Jack. Ali, naravno, postoje situacije u kojima je teže uživati. Vjerujem da su nam trenutci koji će nam najviše ostati u sjećanju oni kada smo se osjećali najviše udaljenima od doma. Svirati za naše fanove u Meksiku je uvijek nevjerojatno. Vidjeti da naša glazba može dotaknuti toliko različitih ljudi s toliko različitim kulturama od one u kojoj je glazba napravljena čovjeka čini poniznim.
Kako se ideja touranja mijenjala za tebe tijekom karijere? Gledaš li još na to na isti način? Što bend dobiva od turneja? Gledajući s moje perspektive, izgleda prilično umarajuće; svaki dan drugi grad, sviranje pjesama za ljude koje nikada nisi upoznao? Osjećaš li ikada taj ‘mračni’ dio ili sam ja samo jako pesimističan?
To je jako naporan posao i jako je iscrpljujuć. Većinu noći spavaš u busu koji se kreće i, iako ja nemam problema sa snom, postaneš svjestan da je kvaliteta sna koju dobivaš jako loša. Svi znamo koliko je kvalitetan san bitan za zdravlje. Touranje također može biti vrlo usamljeno. Čudno je to liminalno iskustvo gdje se cijelo vrijeme nalaziš u stanju lutanja. Dom se čini dalek, bez obzira na daljinu, kad su neke slobode koje donosi dom uskraćene. Nedostaje mi probuditi se i napraviti doručak sebi i djevojci, ali postoji i dosta toga što pronalazim oslobađajućim. Volim živjeti s malo stvari. Veoma je osnažujuće lutati svijetom samo s nekoliko knjiga, nešto odjeće, iPodom i kamerom. Shvatiš koliko ti malo treba da budeš sretan. Nastupi su za nas velika privilegija. Pišeš pjesme kako bi pitao ljude ta pitanja, a oni se pojave u tisućama i govore: „Čujem te! Idemo proći to zajedno.“
Doživljavaš li sebe kao umjetnika ili zabavljača? Koja je razlika, gdje je granica i zašto jedno ili drugo?
To je vrlo zeznuto. Ja se definitivno borim s nedostatkom samopoštovanja i teško mi je sebe gledati kao umjetnika zato što osjećam da ono što želim reći se uvijek mijenja. Jako je lako pogledati na ono što si radio prije i gledati na to kao neuspjeh ili ‘lošu umjetnost’. Tada zaboravim da je to u to vrijeme prava stvar za napraviti i da je bilo povezano s time što si želio izraziti TADA. Kada ljudi kažu kako ih je dirnula neka stara pjesma, više se osjećam kao umjetnik, ai na pozornici se osjećam kao da moramo zabaviti. Važno je doživjeti pozornicu kao mjesto gdje se rad izvodi, prezentira, a ne proizvodi. Vjerojatno je dio ljepote jazza taj što na pozornici imamo osjećaj kao da smo pušteni u studio jazz glazbenika putem te improvizacije. Na našim nastupima dolaziš doživjeti ‘umjetnost’ u više osjetilnom i napetom okruženju. Naša glazba rađena je s kralježnicom popa, a pop je uvijek bio zabava. Paul Simon je jednom rekao da je najveći uspjeh kada pomiješaš kliše s nečim što ima prizvuk važnosti u sebi. I slažem se. To je sjajna pop glazba:
“Papa don’t preach, I’m in trouble deep…but I made up my mind, I’m keeping my baby.”
Kakvu glazbu si slušao kao tinejdžer?
Heavy jebeni metal.
Koje ti je najranije sjećanje na glazbu?
Kompilacija Paula Simona “Negotiations and Love Songs”. I kompilacija Davidy Byrnea “Brazil Classic: O Samba”.
Izvorni tekst
Five albums is a lot! Do you feel like you have said everything you wanted to say when you started playing?
What you want to say changes all the time. I think “To Lose My Life” probably included everything I wanted to say, age 18/19. The lyrics on “Five” do come from a person in a very different place to ten years ago. I’ve experienced a lot more, and I feel that with experience comes the confidence and grace to say things with more subtly and delicacy. I’ve got a lot more to say in this life, I’m sure.
What is the fascination with cities in your songs? First London, then L.A. and now Tokyo? Is there a story behind these songs?
I find where people live very interesting. The psycho-geography of it. I grew up in a quite westerly part of London, and I remember from an early age noticing how the feel of a City changes as you move around it. I went to school right in the centre of the city, and then I lived in the South for a while before moving North. The points of the compass always hold more than just direction. I think I, like some of the people in White Lies songs, slightly fetishists the idea of moving to another city of country. Not out of the search for something better, but more to see if I could do it; to see if I could become a real inhabitant of that city, or area of the city, and not just live looking into the bubble. I’ll always be fascinating by the way people go about making a home for themselves.
Can you explain me the background and the concept of your new album? What is his idea? Why Braille’s alphabet?
There’s no concept to the album. It’s a collection of songs that I suppose come from a thoughtful group of boys living in strange times. However, in these songs are a lot of different characters – some based on people I have met, or am friends with, but also characters from imagination. And the act of embodying them so as to write a song from their perspective involves a type of translation. I was attracted to the minimal quality of the Kobigraph, and how that language looks, and of course, feels on paper. Saying a lot with a little. As a writer you don’t want your listener or reader to only hear what a character is saying, you need them to feel what it is to be them.
Will we have the opportunity to hear songs Taxidermy and You Still Love Him during your show in Zagreb? (They are great songs, few of my favourites). Are you still performing them?
No, we haven’t played those songs for years. We have a hard time choosing the set-list these days, with about 60 songs to chose from. Fortunately the set on this tour is receiving incredible enthusiasm and praise from our fans around the UK and Europe. We’ve had a lot of people tell us what a fantastic collection of songs it is that we’ve chosen to play. It’s a real journey, a real show. We can’t wait to take it to Zagreb. The songs you mention both come from the “To Lose My Life” era, and we are starting to make plans to later in the year celebrate the tenth anniversary of that record. Perhaps at least one of those will get an airing before Christmas.
How do your family and your parents perceive your music? Are they fans? Do your parents, wives and children come to your shows when you’re playing at home?
I think our loved ones are genuinely very proud of what we do, and what we have achieved. They are also often the harshest critics. Personally speaking, when my Dad really loves a song we’ve written, I see it as the greatest vote of confidence. It was through his love of music that mine blossomed, so I still feel quite tied to his opinion.
You must be addicted to some shows (TV, Netflix…), I reckon. What do you watch, what are your favourite shows and would you like to make a song for some show? Take one song of yours and say in which show you could imagine it.
I actually don’t watch much TV at all. I watch a few of those true crime things from time to time. “The Jinx” was the best one though, and all have paled in comparison since. I remember liking the first series of “Top Of The Lake” (though the second series was garbage) and I remember thinking how much I’d like to compose the music for that series. White Lies music would be brilliant for any dramatic film or TV show, or of course for any reputable brand’s advert made with a sizeable music budget.
What about movies? Video for There Goes Our Love Again looks like it’s been inspired by an old Bollywood movie “Gumnnam”. What kind of movies do you like to watch? What are you favorite movies of all time?
I still love cinema, yeah. Favourite movies of all time off the top of my head would be “The Darjeeling Limited”, “A Nos Amours”, “Apocalypse Now”. I like a bunch of different kinds of movies. On the one hand I’m a sucker for some life-changing art-house cinema, but I also would happily watch “Interstellar” on a big screen any day of the week.
And now for some serious questions. What is the message of the music that you created on your last album (how do you incorporate the message you want to send into your music)?
I think all art is not so much about a message, as it is a question. We make art to open a dialogue about the fact that we as artists exist, having had no choice in the matter. And this dialogue is directed to the listeners, or viewers, or readers who are also existing in this same place as us, and have equally had no choice in the matter. And the question is always, “how are you coping with all this?”. I think because of this, art relies on someone other than the artist to experience it, and react – thus connecting with the dialogue. A song like Time to Give on this record is effectively posing the question, “anyone else think relationships are difficult to get your head around?”.
Your discography starts with post-punk kind of a vibe which continues to the second album. Then thing change and album “Friends” is a mixture of that gloomy sound from the beginning of your career with the more uplifting sound of your two latest records. Having that in mind, the first and the last album are something completely different. Do you think that the change over the course of the years was always gaining you new fans and have the fans from your beginnings remained until this record even though you changed as a band quite a bit?
Yes, we are gaining fans all the time. But no doubt, we have lost a few too. So long as the people making the music are growing, it’s likely that the work they make will also grow. A lot of people connected with the over-blown and sort of hypo-teenage-goth style of song on “To Lose My Life”, and we still love them too. But when we play them or listen to them, we see the songs as a part of our history not a part of our present. We made no efforts to grow away from any kind of sound or song, but just let whatever happened naturally be. We’re currently on our biggest tour ever, and by the end of it will have sold more tickets on a tour than ever before. So we are lucky to say, despite the record charts, and despite the British press, and radio, we are actually a bigger band than ever before. We have more passion, and drive than we ever have, and most importantly we’re enjoying ourselves more than we ever have. It is incredible to hear, ten years into a career, the crowds at our shows singing Tokyo from the new album louder than they sing Death from the first. That really says something.
Do you think White Lies follow the trends in modern music?
Nope. Thank goodness.
There is always this idea that music must have greater idea, greater purpose, greater meaning. Is that true for today’s music? What was the reason that made you decide to make music? Is it all just for fun or job or do you look at it as more than that?
This goes back to what I said before; art being a way of opening a dialogue with other humans about our random existence. It is a tool for the kind of loneliness you can still feel in a crowd of friends. Of course, there are different methods of expression, and art should never be judged on the quantity of people it appeals to, but rather the strength it has moving an individual. A song will always be equally a failure and a success, as will a painting and a movie. That is the beauty of it. Art is a friendly parasite, it needs to feed of people. If a song that, heard by only one person, moves them profoundly, then it is as much of a success as a song that moves thousands profoundly, and I would argue a greater success than a song which moves thousands only mildly. Good art appeals to the emotions, and so must be made by something with emotional intelligence. I feel quite a substantial amount of popular music made these days is created by people with perhaps a little lacking in the emotional-intelligence department. I’ll just leave these lyrics from a contemporary pop song here:
I’m tired of being home alone (Home alone)
I used to have a girl a day (Girl a day)
Yeah, I want you to stay (I want you to stay, hey)
You said you might be into girls (Into girls)
You said you’re going through a phase (Through a phase)
Keepin’ your heart safe (Keepin’ your heart safe, oh)
Well, baby, you can bring a friend (Bring a friend)
She can ride on top your face (Top your face)
While I fuck you straight (While I fuck you straight, yeah)
What is it like being on the other side of the stage? Surely, idea of touring the world playing to sold out venues and having people sing with you your own song is out of this world amazing but is there more to it? What was the most memorable moment from this tour so far?
Like any experience, it varies all the time. Every show is a different show, because every show has a different audience and a different city around it, and a different venue to perform it in. Most of the time I absolutely love playing our songs on a stage, and so do Harry and Jack. But, expectedly, there are some occasions where it’s more difficult to enjoy. I suppose our most memorable moments often come from shows where we feel so far removed from our home in England. Playing for our vast sea of fans in Mexico is always amazing. To see our music move people from such a different place and culture than to where the music was made…it’s humbling.
How has the idea of touring changed for you during your career? Do you still look at it the same way? What does a band get from touring? Looking it from my angle it could be very exhausting; every day in another city playing songs to the people you have never met in your life? Do you ever get a sense of that darker side or am I being extremely pessimistic?
It’s very hard work, and it is very tiring. You sleep on a moving bus most nights, and whilst I have no trouble falling asleep. you become aware that the quality of sleep you are getting is pretty poor. We all know how important good sleep is for our health…and so…Touring can also be quite lonely. It’s a strange liminal existence, where you are relied on in a very pivotal way, and equally are in a state of constant rootlessness. Home feels far away, regardless of distance, when some of the freedoms of home are constricted. I miss just waking up and cooking breakfast in private for my girlfriend and myself. But there is also a lot about touring that I find incredibly liberating. I love living with very few possessions. It’s invigorating to be roaming the world with just a few books, some clothes, an iPod, and a camera. Makes you realise how little we need to be happy. And the shows are a great privilege for us. You write these songs to ask these questions to fellow human beings, and they turn up in their thousands to say “I hear you! Let’s go through this together.”
Do you perceive yourself as an artist or an entertainer? What is the difference and why one rather than the other?
That’s a very tricky one. I definitely struggle with low self worth, and I find it hard to genuinely see myself as an artist. Because I feel what I want to express is always shape-shifting, it is so easy to look back on past work and see it as a failure – see it as ‘bad art’. But then I forget that, at the time, it clearly was the right thing to do, and linked to what I wanted to express THEN. When people come to say how certain old songs have moved them, I feel more like an artist. But on stage, I feel like we need to entertain. It’s important to embrace the stage as where the work is presented more than created. Perhaps part of the appeal of jazz is that we often find, with improvisation, we’re let into the artists’ studio when we see them live. But with our show, you’re coming to experience the “art”?! in a more multi-sensory and possibly intense surrounding. Our music is written with a pop backbone, and pop has always been about entertainment. Paul Simon once said the most powerful work you can make is when you manage to mix cliche, with something that has a genuine aura of importance about it. I agree. That’s great pop music:
“Papa don’t preach, I’m in trouble deep…but I made up my mind, I’m keeping my baby.”
What kind of music were you listening as a teenager?
Heavy fucking metal.
What is your earliest childhood memory about music?
A compilation by Paul Simon called Negotiations and Love songs. And a compilation put together by David Byrne called Brazil Classics: O Samba.
